Los Angeles Times Editorializes about the LAFD for the New Year

[firepost 15]

 I thought that I would call this to your attention regarding the editorial in the Los Angeles Times.

 

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-lafd-fire-chief-20140105,0,647337.story#axzz2pZMPckth

 

 

 

[mikesaccount 4]

Is the department planning to put back some of the disbanded task forces or light force?

[firepost 15]

According to the article the LAFD is supposed to be working on a new strategic plan and there is a supposed management study that is taking place. Of course they are looking for a new fire chief. 

[EMT_FS46 23]

this article has been change. I initially read it on Friday or Saturday and it mentioned returning the LAFD staffing back to 3500. That part has since been taking out of the article.

[tnluke401 1]

Bye bye task force and light force concept if they are looking to reorganize. It's an awesome concept but sending a tiller truck and pumper to a medical emergency is about the least efficient idea ever. If they want to save money tiller quints would be a good start.

[firepost 15]

They tried that out some time ago by borrowing a Tillered Quint from the Los Angeles County fire department and using it on LA City Light Force 58 and it didn't work out. They also borrowed a rear mounted E-One Aerial Ladder quint from Anaheim with the same results. This was in the 1990's when the LA County fire department was getting it's first tillered quints.

 

 In reality the Light Forces are two piece quints however a one piece Quint doesn't give them enough space for all of the equipment that they carry on board. They need to run the 200 or 300 series Engine with the Truck as they are part of the same fire company and if they should get a fire when they are out on the street they could respond together like they are supposed to. They don't send out Light Forces to every EMS call  as it depends on where the nearest company is and who is available. Some times a single Engine company will be dispatched or 2 ambulances depending on the their location and the nature of the emergency.

The 2 piece Light Force concept works well when there is a greater alarm or major emergency taking place as that way the Light Force can act as an Engine or a Truck company if they are running short  of fire companies during busy times.

[joeyk48 25]

firepost,why would it not work putting a 4 man engine and 4 man truck in a station together. la county does it, long beach , Glendale , Pasadena as well as most of the so cal cities do it . is it the ideal concept, no. is it what la city is used too, no. are they going to do it, don't know.  but it is an option they might look at, eliminate some light and task forces, take the 200 rig staff it with 2 more ff and you have another engine company . la city always needs additional engines, they could be put in new stations or in high call volume stations like 9, 46 . also when ems makes up 85% of the call load there is always a need for more paramedic ra's and 800's . you would not be losing any manpower or loss of jobs, they would just be redistributing the workload to accommodate the call load

[EMT_FS46 23]

The only problem is corruption. you have firefighters making 80-100 grand a year, medics making 100k plus. Firefighters and medics doing dispatch.  Then you have the budget situation. My thing is L.A. did have a high crime rate that has dropped a lot. But was it due to more cops or was it due to longer prison sentence? my thing is stop hiring cops unless the crime rate goes back up to like it was in the early 2000's. DWP is the highest paid city department and are always raising our utility cost. CUT DWP AND LAPD and these city officials with ridiculous salaries  and the then  LAFD will be OKAY.

 

just my theory

[pump305 32]

Why does everyone attack how much a F/F makes. Who cares! There is nothing wrong with  a F/F making 80-100K a year. As for Tillered Quints.. they are a joke. Over weight break down alot so on and so on. A light force is ideal and LAFD does run ST9 with a fully manned engine and truck. As they do not have a 200 series. Also during high fire danger LAFD  will mann the 200 and run it.

[firepost 15]

 JoeyK48 what you are saying does make some sense and in fact in 2006 former Fire Chief Bamattre did propose and release a multiyear plan which would have added several more fire companies and Battalions which would have been over and above what the Los Angeles City fire department had in 2008/2009 before the cut backs of the last several years.

For example there would have also been an Engine 22,30,31,54 and 78 as well as a Light Force 30. There would have been a second Heavy Rescue company and at the end of 5 years all of the 6 Urban Search and Rescue  trucks would have each had their own dedicated manpower assigned to them. All 4 of the Haz Mat Squads would have also been manned and 5 additional Battalions would have been added so there would have been 21 instead of just 16 Battalions after 5 years.

There also would have been more ambulances and assessment companies which were out lined in a second EMS expansion plan. Of course with a few years after Chief Bamattre left the fire department was forced to take companies out of service as opposed to adding them like Chief Bamattre proposed.

[joeyk48 25]

I hear what everybody is saying, but you can bet mayor garcetti, and his staff will be looking at other local depts. as well as other big city depts. such as seattle, Portland san Francisco an so on to see how they do things and if it works. I am not saying this is a good fit for lafd , but you can bet they will look at ALL options . with 85% of calls now ems they are looking at re-deployment of resources that give them the most bang for the buck without reducing staffing. we will have to wait as see how this plays out

[buckeyefyrfoto 16]

Make all the 200 series engines 4 man companies, have the trucks 4 man companies, and run them individually on calls. The trucks should only roll out on fires/mva's and such. No ems calls unless they are the only units close buy. They can also be the ones that test the hydrants and inspections if the field units still do that stuff. Since EMS is the vast majority of the calls, and engine and truck on a call is a waste of resources. The 4 man 200 engine and ra suffice and the truck stays available for fire calls.

 

I know most big cities use medic rescues, but here in Az, most of the engines and alot of ladder companies are ALS. Why doesn't LAFD start putting medics back on their engines like they did in the 90s/00s. Have 1 medic on the engine and 1 on 1 on the ra, that way the engine wouldn't have to do er follow-up unless necessary. They could go right back in service. Most of the engines in PHX metro dont do er follow-ups. The care is transferred to the ra. They go right back in service.

 

LAFD needs to realize they are in the EMS business now. Apparatus deployment needs an overhaul!

 

Just my thoughts.

[EMT_FS46 23]

everybody can come up with what they feel the LAFD should do but reality is the light force task force concepts works for LAFD. No companies should have ever been closed. Instead the LAFD needs to re-evaluate how they respond to medical calls. Example before station 46 added an additional paramedic rescue u had E46 RA46 RA846. E46 is a paramedic engine. not sure if there is one or 2 medic on board. a lot of time u get engine and rescue 46 on a person down call. That takes both medic resources out of service leaving RA846 a bls resource with 2 EMT's. Now if that person down is critical the RA will transpot. one ff/pm will drive and the other will assist. Now since the engine is a medic engine why not send E46 and RA846. if the patient is critical the 2 medic can jump in the rescue and go to the hospital leaving a paramedic ambulance for the next call. If a paramedic RA trasports a critical paitent the engine is going anyway because one ff will drive and the other will jump in the back of the ambulance to help the 2 medics.

 

Quints will not work for LAFD. The county has them and I have heard guys say the hate them because they are always breaking down due to the weight but lets be honest how often do we see quints pumping on a structure fire or any type of fires. 300 gallon tank with 1 1/2 and 1 3/4 attack lines with 125 and 200 gpm nozzles smh. L.A. county runs 5 light forces. two maybe you could consider task force being station 8 and 82 since they also have a engine there too. 2 of the 5 uses standard trucks station 82 and 170. the other 3 are quints.

[joeyk48 25]

fs46 nobody is disputing that the task force and light forces work for lafd. they were a great concept that came as a result of the watts riots. fast forward to the 21st century. dragging a 200 series around behind a ladder truck is very costly, you have a 350,000 dollar rig with 2 guys on it, mileage, wear and tear, diesel fuel, insurance,  equipment. it all add's up. I am not for eliminating the 200 series,but with 85 % of calls being medical, they are becoming harder and harder to justify.

[FireGuy 3]

Interesting ideas by all. A few thoughts and considerations:

- NFPA guidelines set minimum truck staffing in large cities at a minimum of five, not four

- Quints would never make it up many of the city's hillside narrow streets due to the longer cab wheelbase

- The 200 series engine provides flexibility for the truck personnel to immediately staff up an additional engine

- During a major pre-deployment/staffing augmentation/recall the 200 series engine is fully staffed along with the truck

- The 200 series often remains in quarters for an EMS response

Budget stuff:

- The DWP budget is not a competing budget priority for the LAFD. The DWP, while a municipal utility, is funded like a private utility in that it's revenues are derived from ratepayers dollars, not taxes or the city coffers.

EMS stuff:

- Most engines and light forces are now ALS assessment companies in LA City.

- One + one paramedic staffing requires LA County Department of Heath Services approval and there are other issues that require close examination of such a configuration, not the least of which is that it would require the ALS RA to always respond with an engine.

- The LAFD "person down" ALS level response algorithm for third-party callers was recently modified to only dispatch the closest BLS ambulance, OR a single engine if closer. No engine AND paramedic RA are going on the initial response anymore.

- The whole argument that LAFD is an EMS agency and that 85% of calls are EMS is factually correct, but really serves the undermine the multi-disciplinary role of an all risk fire and life safety agency.

It's always a delicate balancing act to configure the right mix of resources to respond to both primary missions, especially under budgetary pressures and competing priorities, but the leaders of modern fire service are really doing the profession a disservice (in this poster's opinion) by at this point overemphasizing the EMS role. Yes, the private sector EMS vultures are always trying to swoop in and take over, but throwing out stats like 85% EMS only serves to lead the elected decision makers to believe fires are a once and a while occurrence. The truth, as we all well know is that there are working fires in Los Angeles everyday, and the big ones are incredibly resource taxing and justify the need for a well staffed standing army. We also live in earthquake country...

[firepost 15]

Fire Guy when you refer to a third party caller reporting a person down can you give an example. I would imagine that the third party would be someone who in not a witness to the incident correct.?  For example if I were to see someone down on the street then I would be  a first party caller, correct?  If I were to knock on my neighbors door and ask them to call 911 for a person down on the street would the neighbor or person that is asked to make the call would they then be a second party caller or would they be a third party caller?

Here's another example. If a Taxi Driver were to see someone collapse on the street (which could be classified as a witnessed event and he would get on his radio and ask his dispatcher to call 911 for a witnessed Cardiac arrest or witnessed collapse would it still be considered as as third party call or would that really be a second party call? 

This is just for a clarification ,thank you.

[FireGuy 3]

Fire Guy when you refer to a third party caller reporting a person down can you give an example. I would imagine that the third party would be someone who in not a witness to the incident correct.?  For example if I were to see someone down on the street then I would be  a first party caller, correct?  If I were to knock on my neighbors door and ask them to call 911 for a person down on the street would the neighbor or person that is asked to make the call would they then be a second party caller or would they be a third party caller?

Here's another example. If a Taxi Driver were to see someone collapse on the street (which could be classified as a witnessed event and he would get on his radio and ask his dispatcher to call 911 for a witnessed Cardiac arrest or witnessed collapse would it still be considered as as third party call or would that really be a second party call? 

This is just for a clarification ,thank you.

First party would be the patient themselves. Second party would be someone at the patient's side. Third party would be a person not involved in the incident, such as a neighbor asked to call 9-1-1 as you cited, or more commonly, someone driving by in a car who observes a man laying down on the sidewalk. These calls in the current ProQA software come up as in the high risk ALS "Delta" category. The overwhelming majority of these calls turn out to be BLS in nature (or someone just sleeping). I believe only about 15% of these calls actually require ALS intervention.

[firepost 15]

Thanks fireguy. Since you had previously mentioned that most Light Forces and Engines are Assessment companies don't you really mean that most stations now have an assessment company assigned to them as if I'm correct isn't is still true that if a station has more then one suppression company assigned to it only one of them will be an Assessment (ALS) company?

 

For example in houses that are still lucky enough to house both an Engine company and a LIght Force (a Full Task Force) since they are considered to be as 2 companies would either the Engine be an Assessment company or the Light Force would be an Assessment company but both of them of them wouldn't  as it would either be one or the other, correct?

 

I would also like to confirm with you what the current dispatches are for both your Category A and your Category B responses are as you seem to be up to date.

 

I know that a few years ago  a Category A was to receive no less then 4 suppression companies including one light force and 3 Engine companies plus a both an ALS and a BLS ambulance and a Battalion Chief while a Category B was to have no less then 6 suppression companies assigned with no less then 2 Light Forces and 4 Engine companies plus the 2 Ambulances and one or two Battalion Chiefs.

So what I am really trying to clarify are those company dispatch amounts still correct or has it been reduced as I am under the impression that it might have been reduced by one Engine on both the Category A and the Catergory B dispatches.

 

In the 1980's the Category A dispatches were to be no less the 3 suppression companies while the Category B dispatches were to be no less then 5 companies because only 3  as opposed to 4 full Engine companies were required.

 Those numbers were subsequently increased to a minimum of 4 suppression companies on a Category A and 6 suppression companies on a Category B however I don't if those numbers are still correct or not.

 

 I know that Los Angeles City does things differently then most other cities but  are High Rise Fires still dispatched as Category B (commercial or multi family residential building alarms) or have they now provided a separate dispatch category for High Rise fires. Over the last  5 to 10 years many cities have increased the amount of the companies that are dispatched to High Rise Fires as opposed to commercial or multiple dwelling fires. I haven't heard about Los Angeles CIty doing that yet however. Thanks again. 

Edited January 20, 2014 by firepost

[wardog15 2]

I think that the LAFD do what Santa Monica Fire did. Do away with the rescues and farm that service out to private ambulance companies and the money they used to buy new RA's, buy what they can of engines and trucks and place the rest of that personnel on the rigs. This way you can maybe get back to a "heavy task force" station and or fully manned 200 series engine companies. Everyone still has a job and fire and EMS protection is still there.

 

Just a thought.

[FireGuy 3]

I think that the LAFD do what Santa Monica Fire did. Do away with the rescues and farm that service out to private ambulance companies and the money they used to buy new RA's, buy what they can of engines and trucks and place the rest of that personnel on the rigs. This way you can maybe get back to a "heavy task force" station and or fully manned 200 series engine companies. Everyone still has a job and fire and EMS protection is still there.

 

Just a thought.

Not looking to start a debate here, but private EMS in a City the size of Los Angeles would be a public health disaster, and the City would permanently give up its exclusive right to transport under Health and Safety Code Section 1797.201 AKA: 201 Rights. Private ambulance companies will never be able to be able to provide the same level of service as the Fire Department.