nfd2004

Way back in 1984 I made a trip from Connecticut to L.A., Calif. That's a long time ago but I wanted to see how the other side of the country fire depts operated. I was a firefighter in a small city of Connecticut (Norwich FD - 60 member career dept). I had been a fire buff since a kid chasing fires in Bridgeport, Ct where my father was on the job. In 1968 I got my first introduction to the very busy FDNY when I rode with Rescue 2. It was the beginning of what they called the War Years, as fires would become a routine way of life there for the next 10 years and continue an additional somewhat slower pace but still very heavy into the 1980s. A television show called "Emergency" introduced many in the northeast part of the US exactly what a paramedic was and what they did. It also introduced many into the world of County Fire Depts such as L.A. County. For the Northeast the word County Fire Dept still does not exist. we have many seperate fire depts. However, some career depts have adopted paramedics into their depts. Most private EMS in Connecticut offers both emergency transport and paramedic ambulances. Very few departments in Connecticut run the emergency ambulance service. I will follow up this series of what the comparison was, and in some cases, still is. Comparing the fire service of the northeast area with the fire service of the LA area during my 1984 trip. It was a completely different operation in comparison. Yes, the smoke and the heat is the same but thats about where it ends. To Be Continued.

I also visited/buffed Detroit back around 1985/86. I had a few friends from the Newark/Jersey City area that were also buffs. I don't remember how we met, I only remember one was a police officer in Irvington, his brother ended up being a Battalion Chief in Elizabeth, and the other guy was a firefighter in Springfield, NJ. They were what I called "Professional Buffs". These guys had been all over. knew what company was doing what and what neighborhoods were burning. I believe it was in 1984 when they went out to Detroit to buff what was called "Devils Night". It was the night before Halloween. So I guess October, 1984. When they came back, they told me that it was unbelievable. There were 200 serious working building fires that night. They told me that they would ride down a street and had buildings burning on both sides of them and in front of them. And they said there wasn't any companies to respond. Just too many fires. Later Firehouse Magazine did a story on the fires of Detroit on that Devils Night. So the next year, I decided to go out there. They had every city car and truck out there patrolling for fires. Plus there were civilian patrols. Compines were teamed up to operate out of a few Command Firehouses throughout the city. It was tough to follow the action because very little activity was announced over the dept radio channel. You could hear a working fire going on but didn't know where it was. Because of that, it turned out to be a little disappointing and really wasn't at all like the year before. I think I caught seven jobs that night. A few because I could see them. I know they had more than seven though. Devils Night, 2013 saw about 40- 50 building fires as I understand it. The movie "Burn" tells its story. If you haven't seen it yet, it's worth checking out. And I think it's also out on DVD.

Thank you. I'll check it out.

Thank you Generic for your reply. I had heard rumor that it might have been digital radios that had the problem. I will pass that information on.

It has been reported that one of the events that led to the deaths of these firefighters were their radios. Is this a digital radio system ?

On another web site (NYCFIRE) the discussion came up about the LA City Task Force and Lite Force. Is the second piece Engine (200 series) a fully equipped Engine Co ? Also the manning for that one engine is a driver only, correct ? And it will respond with the Ladder Co as "Lite Force #.. Would someone please advise us sitting on the side of that other big pond, just how things are set up. So if you can help us out, we appreciate it.

Post number 10 and 11. I thought we were discussing LA Fire Dept Lite Forces !

Yes, Thank you.

Thanks again.

In 1984 when I visited the LA area, I didn't see one burned out building. It was quite different at that time in the cities of the northeast. There were blocks of burned out buildings, vacant lots where buildings once stood, and always a burned out abondoned car in the area. It was just so different. I remember one neighborhood in the Bronx, NY where the only building NOT burned out on the street was the police station. That was the NYPDs 42 precient on Simpson St. Whatever the LA City Fire Dept and LA County Fire Dept was doing then to prevent the arson, they were doing something right. Because once a building burns, there's no tax dollars coming in to support the services and if it is a business that burns, people will loose their jobs. I just could not believe that in my travels throughout the LA area, I never saw one burned out building. Of course shortly after I left, I saw the news showing a high rise fire in downtown L.A. A few months later, Firehouse Magazine did a story on it. Here in the northeast, many of us who were called "buffs" or "sparks" would get together maybe at a McDonalds or diner with our portable scanners to chase fires. In Boston there was a Howard Johnsons at Mass Ave and Southhampton St. It was called "whip city" because many of the sparks would hang out there with their cars, all having large whip antennas for their car scanners on Boston FD and the surrounding fire depts. Bostons Engine 43 and Ladder 20 were right around the corner and those guys knew what we were there for. They'd always give a blast of the air horn when they past us returing to the firehouse from a run. For awhile (just before 1984) many of us hung out across the street from the famous Engine 82/ladder 31 in the Bronx, NY. There was a store there called "Angies Market". While most of the area was burned out and vacant, they did a great business selling goodies to the buffs. A friend of mine was doing some work for a retired FDNY firefighter who worked at that firehouse. On his wall is a picture he took from the firehouse looking out at Angies Market. My buddy asked him what was going on in that picture, with all those people across from the firehouse. He asked if a riot was going on. The retired FDNY member told him, there was no trouble. That's just a picture of the buffs hanging out across from the firehouse. Today the fires of the northeast have really slowed down. Last week a friend of mine visited that same South Bronx neighborhood. There are no more burned out buildings or abondoned cars. No more rubbish in vacant lots. There are new buildings and rehabbed old burned out buildings. In the Bronx that day and there wasn't one working fire. The most I ever caught was 11 jobs in one trip and that was only within a few square miles. I had brought a few guys with me and it was their first trip. As we left one guy said; "It was like they opened the gates and let us out". Closet thing to a Third World Country you would ever see in America. When I had made my trip to LA I didn't know if there were any buffs or sparks in the area. I would have liked to have met some. There must have been a few though because at one time I got a newsletter delieverd to my house. It listed some of the working fires and any new equipment. I don't think I still have them. The newsletter only lasted for a year or so. I can't remember the name of it, but if I find it I will post it.

So as I understand it, the 200 series engine may NOT always run with two firefighters. Sometimes, only the one driver.

Thanks for that info too. And it seems that the area of Engine 9 hasn't changed much since I visited that area many years ago. It was "Skid Row" then also.

Thank you "LAfan". that is what we wanted to know. Thanks guy.

I appreciate that and I hope everybody enjoys them. Way back before the TV series "Emergency" was a TV Show called "Rescue 8". It was before color television and as a kid I watched it on the tube in black and white. It was about two firefighters who worked together on an L.A. County Fire Rescue Squad long before the days of paramedics. I am quite sure that it was the very first TV Series about the fire dept. And like the show "Emergency", which came out in the 70s, "Rescue 8" came out in the 50s but also was based on a firefighting crew working a rescue squad in Los Angeles County. Interesting that even back in the 1950s, fire depts were organizied into countys. Today, in a place like Connecticut where there are a total of Seven Counties, there is not one county fire dept. In fact there are 169 towns and cities in Connecticut, but over 300 totally independent seperately funded fire depts. Hard to believe, but the city that I live in has Six totally seperate individually funded fire depts. Boundry lines place a huge part into it. One side of the street might be one department, the other side a totally different department with different chiefs, officers, and members. There has been some regional dispatching but not at all based on a county wide system. As a result, services are duplicated many times over. I'm sure some may find that strange that so many seperate depts exist like this. In Norwich, Ct where I live, we have one career dept that covers a seperate area, and five other volunteer fire depts, all within a city of about 40,000 people in about 35 sq miles. But to get back on the subject of my LA trip, I would tell the members of these LA area firehouses how different things really were. But they all had the same question; "How do you guys fight the fires in the winter with that cold and ice" ? It's not easy and I told them, "we try to keep a little fire going so we can keep warm". (joking of course - really just can't wait til that cold night is over). But I told them (LA members) that in no way could I relate to the huge brush fires you guys get. Here in the northeast, we don't really know what a brush fire is like. ten or 15 acres is a BIG ONE for us. But I would like to pass this on. Hard to believe but some of the Biggest Brush fires I have seen were in New York City. That's right. I remember seeing one in Brooklyn, NY (has been referred to as "the Boro of Fire"). That large brush fire was in an area near a highway called "The Belt Parkway" which borders Long Island Sound. It went to a Third Alarm and it was the first time that I had ever seen water drops from a helicopter. An NYPD helicopter with a FDNY Battalion Chief on board, picked up what they call, "The Bambe Bucket". That large bucket picked up water from Long Island Sound and made several dumps on that brush fire. On my trip to LA, it was the first time that I had ever heard the term "Strike Team". At one of the LA County Stations that I stopped at, a member there described what it was and how they would assign engines from various parts of the county to meet up in one general area (stagging) to form a Strike Team and at the same time not strip an entire section. Here if there is a fire or incident where several companies are tied up in one area, units will be relocated to fill in some of the empty firehouses. Here in the northeast we are starting to become familiar with terms like "Strike Teams", "Tanker Task Forces" etc. I believe those terms have orginated in the west coast.

Let me also mention to any and all candidates with hopes of becoming a "Probie Firefighter" in any career dept. My advice that I recieved a long time ago was "eyes and ears open, and mouth shut". Also, whatever you do on the outside now reflects on your entire dept. Go out and get yourself in trouble, get arrested, and EVERYBODY looks bad. Recently in a small dept here, there were two individuals that got arrested on two seperate incidents. Both happened within a month of each other, and of course showed up in the local newspaper. One member got arrested for assault when he got involved in a fight in a bar. Another member, who had just been promoted, got arrested with his wife for stealing $80.00 worth of crap. A T-shirt, a cup, and a key chain. How dumb is that ? (His wife also stole a T-shirt and she's a nurse in one of the largest and best hospitals around here). Two very stupid moves that have dragged an entire fire dept through the mud.

Once again Mr Mead (aka FDNY1075thebox), another nice job. This young individual has supplied several fire dept profiles on several sites. He also list many of the working fires rundown of companies and size ups of many cities. The only question I have for him is "When do you sleep" ? Thank you for the work you do.

Also let me add, if you have any questions regading this thread, I'll be glad to try and answer them. Ask them on here or you could ask through a pm. I guess you could figure out by now, fire dept is my thing. i've been lucky enough to have a great wife who has since past away. she understood my hobby and interest from Day One. We were married for 35 years before she was taken away. Because of her (Helen), I had the chance to not only visit the LA area, but many cities throughout the country. Comparing notes, chasing fires, and able to see the best in action. On a regular basis I was usually chasing fires in NYC, Bridgeport, Ct or Providence, RI. Back in 1984 they were all burning. there were areas in these cities where there were more burned out buildings in a block than occupied buildings. Other cities that I spent time in were Boston, Worcester and Springfield, Mass. Hartford and New Haven, Ct., Yonkers and Buffalo, NY., Newark, Jersey City and Elizabeth, NJ., Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, Pa., Columbus and Cleveland, Ohio, Detroit, Mich., Washington, D.C. and Fairfax County, Va. I have many apparatus photos I took during my visits, and I believe a few may have been posted on Flickr. For anybody who was into the fire service, myself and many of those who were around to see the fire service of the 70s and 80s feel that we were certainly born during the right time. The huge changes that came about to the fire service during those years. Many of us got to see a historic time of fire activity. It was just the right time to be around. I would like to try and stay with the orginial thread of my LA trip in 1984. However, I did write about the fires in Bridgeport, Ct during the 80s, and also about the historic fires the FDNY handled during the 70s and 80s. If you're interested in reading these stories, some include videos and pictures, send me a pm and I'll send you the info. I would also like to Thank EMTBRAVO West for allowing me to tell this story. It gives me the opportunity to tell many what it ewas like for a guy from the northeast part of the U,S, to visit fire depts that seemed to be so different from my part of the United States. However, here is one statement that a New York City firefighter once told me. "If you fight a fire, the heat and the smoke is the same in any city". He was right and I never forgot that.

I was amazed to see LA City companies out doing fire inspections at night. I think maybe the FDNY would do a few inspections at night in the Times Sq area but as far as I know, nobody else here in the northeast would do that. In fact in the 80s very few places in Connecticut were out doing company inspections at all, and certainly not at night. The term paramedic was just starting to come into the northeast fire depts. And it was only because of the TV Show "Emergency" that a few depts here had started to think about providing paramedic service within the fire dept. I believe the City of East Hartford, and Manchester, Ct (in the Hartford area) were the first. Today, roughly about half of the career depts provide some type of paramedic service within the fire dept. When I first went on the fire dept in Norwich, Ct back in 1975, I was told by the chief that I would get the job provided that I became an EMT. Three quarters of the time I had to go to classes on my own time, with no pay. Of a sixty man career dept., I was one of about ten EMTs. We had four fire stations, and sometimes I would look out the window of the firehouse to see a private ambulance respond to a medical call only a few blocks up. The fire dept would not respond. To some the attitude was "we are firefighters, not doctors". And this was during 1984 when I was visiting the LA area. Regardless of what a TV show had about LA County Fire Dept Squad 51 responding with two paramedics to a medical call, most depts here were still geared to responding to fire calls only. Over the years things did change. They had to as there were fewer and fewer fires to go to. And like our trend setters on the west coast, the fire dept started to respond to medical calls on a regular basis. And pretty much all fire depts do now. In fact most depts now require EMT before even taking the test. But to try and tell my West Coast Brother Firefighters that "we do not respond to medical calls" in 1984 was something they just couldn't understand. At the time, even guys with years on the job said that they had ALWAYS responded to medicals. Eating salad, physical fitness, night inspections, and medical calls were all a part of the firefighters job in the LA area. Not really a part of a firefighters job in the northeast at that time. However, let me point out that things have changed here in the northeast since my 1984 visit. And I also want to point out that there were firefighters in the northeast who exercised regularly, but it wasn't mandatory. Also most northeast cities today do respond to medical calls.

This is an Excellent story and we generally take the police for granted until we need them. In every city and town across the country they are out there 24/7 in every type of weather or incident that can happen. I don't know about you, but I depend on them and I sure appreciate what they do. What would we do without them ?

You are correct. I believe the correct LA County staion I was referring to was County Station 41. TF33 and Eng 46 were the busiest LA companies at the time. It was in South Central LA just off the Harbor Freeway (?). I thought that area was referred to as Watts. It's been a really long time and I was only there for two weeks. I try to relate the stories as I remember it. Another area at the time that was probadly the most like the northeast was the area of LA City Eng 9. It was a rundown area just outside the center area of downtown LA. I also visited Station 4 (?) not to far from there. They had a Haz Mat Unit there. I do have pictures of much of the apparatus I took during that time. They are on a disk and I need to look them over to refresh my memory.

In the 1980s the northeast cities were burning. Go to any city and you were sure to see a building fire. In Bridgeport, Ct or Boston, Mass it was usually a large wood frame of two or three families or more. The buildings were close together and often fire would spread to other similiar exposures. In New York City it was the six story brick buildings with about 40 - 50 apartments or perhaps what they call a brownstone or row of three or four attached wood frames with a common cockloft. But there were FIREs, and lots of them. Guys that were called Buffs or Sparks would get together with their portable scanners at a diner or coffee shop and sooner or later be chasing a working fire. In some places it was two or three a night. Some guys took pictures, but it required expensive equipment and expensive film. Brightness of day needed one kind of equipment and darkness of night needed another. So for the northeast, fires were just a part of some of these neighborhoods. Prior to my trip, I had checked to see what companies were the busiest in LA City and LA County. I saw that LA City was Task Force 33 and Engine 46, both in the Watts area. The busiest for LA County at the time was in the City of Compton. I think it might have been Station 54. These were the companies at the time in the ghetto areas. It was before the LA Riots of 1992, but it was after the "Blackout of 1977" in New York City. What I saw in LA did not compare to the fire activity I had been used to in the Northeast. Although no doubt a dangerous ghetto area, no place compared to the ghettos of the northeast. And in the LA area, the buildings were all much smaller with very little exposure problems. When it came to building fires, the northeast offered much more challenges to its firefighters. However, let me add that shortly after my trip I saw on the national news about a large high rise fire in downtown LA. In fact, I had visited Station 10 and one of the guys that spent a lot of time with me there, I saw taking a break in the hallway of that building. He was working the day of that fire and there he is on CNN. But generally speaking, back then the fires here in the northeast were much more common and much more serious in nature. (not talking Brush fires, but building fires). Since then there has been a dramatic drop in serious building fires of the northeast. Better building codes, smoke detectors, fire alarm systems and sprinklers, and even better arson investigations have reduced the fires since the the 1990s. The days of chasing fires from your favorite diner or parking lot with your buff buddies are over. My brother retired as a Battalion Chief from Bridgeport, Ct. He worked some very busy companies in that city. I remember the night he was working the Rescue and caught four serious building fires. Bridgeport would average 30 - 40 working fires a month. Now its more like 3 - 4. At one point it was such a ghetto area that a city police car was assigned to the firehouse with two officers. They would follow that Engine Co to every call. But getting back to the LA area, it wasn't the fires that kept the units running. It was the medical calls. The northeast companies did much less runs, but when they did go out, they were usually flowing water. Even for the northeast, now it is way more medical calls etc., than fires.

In the L.A. City Fire Dept., diet and exercise was a completely different thing for their Brothers of the Northeast fire depts. My very first day was a vist to L.A.City Fire Station # 3. It was a modern fire station in the downtown business area of LA. There were two pumpers and a ladder truck inside. I found out that the company was referred to as Task Force 3. If only a single engine response was required, one engine would respond with the officer and three firefighters, leaving one engine and the ladder truck (I believe a Seagrave tiller TDA) behind. If a second call came in for that area, the other engine with two firefighters, and the ladder truck would respond. They would be referred to as Lite Force #3. So my first vist to an LA City fire station (called fire station in LA, firehouse in NYC) was Fire Station 3. It was about 10 am. My plan was to have the guys pull out the rigs on the long ramp and get photos of the apparatus, then maybe talk to some of the guys alittle fire dept shop talk. When I rang the doorbell for assistance the guy that answered the door showed up wearing gym shorts, sneakers and a T shirt. I told him I was a firefighter from Connecticut and asked if somebody could pull the rigs out for me to take some pictures. He politely said they would but right now they are doing exercise class and could I come back in an hour or so. they'd be glad to do it then. Never before had that ever happen to me. I couldn't believe they were all doing exercises together. Many firehouses in the northeast had set up their own gyms. Most of the equipment was paid for or donated by the guys themselves. It wasn't mandatory and the guys from the northeast did their own thing when it came to physical fitness. When I went back to that firehouse (I mean fire station), the guys gladly pulled out the rigs for me and postioned them however I asked. Then I asked them about their physical fitness program. They told me that every firefighter exercises in the morning right after checking out the equipment. They said it is mandatory and everybody gets weighed once a month. If they are overweight they are required to loose two pounds a month. The overweight firefighter was put into what they called "The Fat Man Club" and were montiored for their weight loss results.They told me that a firefighter could be disaplined if they did not loose the two pounds a month. They also said that they would make a huge salad and that was the meal of the day at the fire station, and they worked a 24 hour shift. It was so different from the firehouses that I had visited in the northeast. At the time, NO dept was doing such a program. Needless to say I was very impressed after seeing these LA City firefighters and listening to them talk. I don't want to give the impression that firefighters of the northeast depts were out of shape. Most were in excellent shape, and they were fighting the fires to prove it. It's just that the LA City Dept had set up such an organized program. And I do also want to mention that each LA Firefighter would take turns leading the class.

By the year 1984 when I made that trip out to L.A. the fires of NYC had started to slow down. On a regular basis, I would make the 75 mile trip from Bridgeport to NYC and then in 1975 when I became a career firefighter in Norwich, I continued to make those NYC trips. By then the FDNY was catching working fires faster than we could keep up with the. A book written by a South Bronx NY firefighter by the name of Dennis Smith had written the book called "Report from Engine Co 82", then the busiest firehouse in the world. Engine 82 would make almost 10,000 runs one year and very few of these reponses involved medical calls. It was all fires. In fact it was the same story in most of the city. The FDNY was responding to an historic amount of fire calls, many of which were serious building fires. Sometimes two in the same block at the same time. As the late 70s approached, other northeast cities began to see their fire activity increase. Places like Newark, Jersey City, NJ., Yonkers and Buffalo, NY., Bridgeport, Hartford, and New Haven, Ct., Providence, RI, and Boston, Mass. But very few, except for Providence which ran three ambulances, responded to any medical calls. These were older cities and many who had been burned out in their New York City neighborhoods were now starting to move into these cities. Many firefighters of the northeast cities smoked cigrettes at the time. Many were overweight including myself. The firehouse meal was a big event in each of these firehouses. Guys were good cooks and most were good eaters. Who could eat the most, often was the game played. I hate to admit it but in those days, "I won many contest". There was little concern for proper diet or exercise, but at the same time there were many more fires than there are today. Even in small city Norwich, Ct where we would usually have at least six or seven serious building fires a month. At the same time my brother was a firefighter in Bridgeport, Ct and they were doing 30 serious building fires a month. This was a city of about 140,000 people in about 18 sq miles. I remember a magazine called "Fire Chief". They did a story comparing San Diego, Calif., to Jersey City, NJ. About the same population but everything else very different when it came to fire protection. San Diego was spread out with a large square mile area, while Jersey City was only a few square miles with a much more densely populated area.. San Diego had much newer larger firehouses while Jersey City had much smaller, older firehouses. Jersey City's call volume was in fire calls, while San Diego's call volume was medical calls. My plan was to go to the LA area and see the difference in depts from the Northeast to the Southwest. Basically Boston to LA. So in 1984, my wife and I made the trip for two weeks. We did the tourist thing but we also agreed that I would spend three days checking out the Los Angeles City Fire Dept, and another three days doing the Los Angeles County Fire Dept. At that time, there were HUGE differences in the firefighters jobs of the Northeast area and those of the LA area. For a total of six days, I exchanged information and stories with some great guys on the job in LA City and County Fire Depts. I know when I left, I was pretty impressed by what they had told me and I think they were pretty impressed with what I had told them.